QnA: Big Group in a Big, Dark Room
Laaaate Wednesday night, Strobist reader Vicki Madden asked, via Twitter:"Need advice on big job on Friday -- large group in high school gym?"
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First of all, not even 48 hours before a "big job" is not the best time to be asking for vague advice. And using @Strobist on Twitter probably is not the best venue. (Try the Strobist Flickr group for that kind of urgent stuff.)
But the question happens to set up a good exercise in pre-thinking your lighting for a scary environment -- not to mention getting into the psychology of doing a large group shot. So even though it is short notice, what the hey.
(Also, my "On Assignment" previously slated for today had to be pushed back. Which always makes a reader lighting question way more appealing to me.)
So, Vicki, hit the jump for a detailed walk-thru on how to approach your shoot, with a minimum of gear.
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First Things First
The minimum lighting setup I would use for this would be three bare speedlights and stands. So I sent Vicki a direct message via Twitter yesterday morning to make sure she could scrounge at least that -- and that there was a full walk-thru was coming on Strobist at 12:00am eastern time.
Here are my assumptions:
One, that she can get ahold of three off-camera sync-able speedlights. Two, that the gym is scary dark, just to make things interesting. Three, that she can scrounge one helper onsite for some help pre-setting the light. And four, let's assume 60 people in the group.
The Gym is Big and The Gym is Dark
And that's the good news.
No, seriously, that is good news. Because with a big group, you're gonna need some distance to light them evenly. And you want dark, too. If this were being done outdoors in the full sun, you'd have no hope of competing with that light level with a few speedlights at any distance. (As in, beyond six feet or so.)
So the dark is working for you, too.
More good news from the gym: Built-in elevation for both you and your lights. Call ahead to make sure the bleachers will be set up for the group shot -- on both sides. Don't leave it to chance, and don't ask meekly, either. (Asking meekly is tantamount to leaving it to chance.)
Call up and say something to the effect of, "Hi, this is Vicki Madden. I am going to be doing the group shot of (whatever) in the gym on Friday, and I need to make sure that both sets of bleachers will be extended at least an hour before the shoot, so we can set up the lighting. Thanks very much."
Call the office, and sound like you make this call every day. The person who answers the phone will not be the person who takes care of the bleachers. But your urgency and authority will be conveyed in their message to the person who will get your bleachers opened up.
And still, arrive a little more than an hour before, and expect to find the bleachers closed. Just expect it and it will not be a stressor when it happens. Track down the gym guy and explain that these are supposed to be open within a few minutes, just to make sure he is on track for your setup time.
Setting Up
You'll be shooting from halfway up one of the sets of bleachers. (The home set, if an emblem is coming into play on the floor.) You'll be halfway up to get some elevation, and to leave some space above your vantage point for your key light.So, imagine your group in front of you. Place your helper at dead center of what will be the middle of, say, three rows of people fairly tightly packed on the gym floor. Estimate your group and figure out the lens you'll need now, from your shooting position.
Place Your Key
Let's say for the sake of argument, that you are going to key light from over your left shoulder. Set your flash well above you (maybe at the top row if in a high school) in the bleachers. Actually, use the foot rest for the people that would be sitting in the top row. Close the light stand, slide it down in there and open it up, wedged in the foot area. Nice and sturdy.
Set your speedlight on 1/2 power, and zoom it to a telephoto setting -- say, 85mm or 105mm. (The 200mm setting on an SB-900, if you are so blessed, might be a bit tight.) Aim it a few feet over the head of the helper in the dead center of your future group. You are doing this not because of poor aim, you are doing it to evenly feather the light left to right, front to back.Set your camera to a relatively high shutter speed, say at 1/125th or 1/250th. I am assuming you have crappy weird gym light and that we are doing this all with flash. Let the gym go dark or darkish on the ambient.
You should get about f/2.8 or f/4 on your center group guy. If you cannot get that, raise your ISO to 800 if your camera makes really good files at that ISO. Otherwise, go to full power on your speedlight. (The former is preferable, as it buys you a faster recycle time so you can get more frames shot before wearing out the group's attention span.)
If you have enough light coming from your speedlight, go to f/5.6 and buy yourself some depth of field. Don't believe your speedlight is capable of that? You might be surprised.
Obviously, if you are using monoblocs in this setting, you'll have power and aperture to burn.
Test your key light for a good exposure on your group area in three different places: Dead center, back row furthest away from the key, and front row closest to the key. Since your flash is on a tele setting, you have real control over your beam of light. By firing it over the front row's heads and a little towards the right side of the back row, there will be an angle that give you nice, even exposures all over your group area.
This is called feathering the light, and it is a good way to light large areas evenly. This is because the near areas fall at the edge of the light's beam. So they receive less light, which compensates for the fact that they are closer. Plus, it will light the gym floor around your subjects, feathering it darker as it gets closer to camera the camera position.
Congratulations, your key light is now set.
Place your Separation light
Now, we are going to the bleachers on the other side, caddy corner, up top. We are going to repeat the exact process to create a light that will separate everyone from the dark background, and light up the gym floor in areas missed by the key light.(Note: Your remotes will have to be able to reach across a gym. If not, you'll need to slave your lights to each other. This should be very easy and effective, as they are essentially pointed right at each other.)
Aim this light over the heads just like the key, and test your exposures while you are at the light. Use that tele zoom setting and there will be an angle that places the entire group at roughly the same exposure. You might want to gobo the front of that light to where it can see your whole group, but not your camera. This will kill any flare from that light coming into your lens.
Now, the Fill
So, that was easy. Now you have hard crosslight evenly lighting your large group. But there are gonna be wicked shadows because we are not taking the mystery vapor ambient into account. We'll fix that with on-axis flash.
This light, like both of your others, is gonna be bare. Why? Because unless you have a 15-foot parabolic reflector, you are not going to do anything with a light softener at this distance other than rob yourself of light intensity. So we are going for hard, efficient and crisp. Those hard shadows created by the key and separation light will be just fine if we can keep them from falling too far.
So get in your eventual shooting position, center bleachers and half-way up. We will place your helper guy in the center again, and dial in your fill light so his shadows look good -- probably about 1.5 stops down or so. No need to get technical -- just do it until he looks good.
You will need to adjust your flash beam to match your lens, so you will get full coverage on your group. Also, feather this light up a little bit, to make for an even fill exposure front-to-back. Makes sense now, huh?
You are closer than the key at your shooting position, so I would expect that 1/8 or 1/4 power might do the trick. Start there and adjust your power level by eye until it looks right. The shadows should look like natural, legible shadows instead of black holes. It's like cooking -- add salt to taste.
Place your fill light on the opposite side of your lens axis as is your key light. For us, that would mean just to the right of your camera lens -- in very close. This way you will get no double shadows, as the key will erase the fill shadows nicely. And the fill will see everything that you can see which would be in the shadow of the key light.Now, walk your light helper around the group area and test middle, front right, front left, back right, etc. Admire your handiwork.
Your Light is Set. Now What?
Now the group. For our 60 people, I would divide them into three or four rows. Make each row have one more person than the row in front, to make a nice fan and to be able to stagger people. For example, instead of three rows of 20, you'd go 19, 20 and 21.
Before everyone gets there, know who the most important person (or people) is in the group. They go front and center. Or mid-center if they are very tall. Before you shoot, introduce yourself to the Big Cheese and explain that you will probably have a little fun at their expense to keep the group relaxed and engaged. It works.
You are now officially the emcee of a three-ring circus. Work fast and keep people loose. Bring them in and concentrate on four things, quickly:
1. Arrange by height -- short in front row, tall in back. Help people divide themselves by saying something like, "Everyone 5'6" and under in the front row, everyone 5'10 and over to the back row." Adjust as needed for your own numbers as mentioned above.
2. Everyone with glasses goes on the side of your group from which you are using your key light. In our case, camera left.
3. Now, have everyone turn their bodies in toward center on both sides. This not only looks better than straight on, but will naturally kill your key and fill reflections in peoples' glasses on the left-hand side. (Even the fill should miss the glasses, as people will naturally face a little away from the key and fill while turning toward center. It works.)
4. Ask everyone to make sure they can see your key light (tell them which light that is) so everyone will have a lit face. If you can see them, they can also see your on-axis fill. No modeling lights needed. Pop a quick test frame and very quickly check to make sure there is not a major problem. Now is not the time to find a problem. You had testing time for that.
Shoot Fast
Focus on the center of the group, about a third of the way in. That'll maximize your minimal depth of field. At this working distance you should be fine. But keep the group tightly packed, just to help yourself out.
Keep the group engaged at the expense of the Big Cheese. If you are comfy enough to joke with/about that person, the group will be a lot more relaxed and loose. I once told a VP at Northrup Grumman who was surrounded by his subordinates that it was great to see him back in men's clothing. (That's why you give them a heads-up first.)
Give them notice as to when you are going to shoot. As in One, Two, Three (pop). But jump the gun occasionally to miss the anticipatory blinkers. As in, One, Two, (pop) Three. Some people just plan to blink for flashes. Beat them to the punch.
Work fast, mind your recycle time (which you tested) and shoot at least a couple dozen frames. Crack jokes the whole time. Be ready to jump on any reaction with a frame. Don't warn them that this is a last frame. Warn them that "We only have about 30 minutes of this left," and shoot when they react. They will.
Use a big, booming authoritative voice (like in Bert Stephani's excellent group shot example) and be in control the entire time. They need you to do that. Get in, get out fast and have fun.
Good luck, Vicki.
Have a Question?
Shoot it to me in a comment on this post. I will pick the best ones and try to answer them in a future Q&A.
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71 Comments:
Nice one David.
We don't get too many QnA on large group shots. I'm glad you were able to shed some light on this.
U da man!
And yet again you prove that you are the best blog on the block. I love all the advice that isn't about lighting.
Best post I have read here. And that's a pretty tall order.
The advice on dealing with people is bang on (from the janitor right to the big cheese).
Many thanks David. Will be put to good use.
Vielen Dank.
Hey Strobist, thank you so much for this post! I will have to do exactly the same shot end of this month. Didn't think about separation light, but it really makes sense.
how do you deal with shadows from the people in the front falling on those in back? Or will the combination key/fill reduce these enough?
Wow. Your posts are always helpful and educational, but I think I learned more from that one posting than from any other. Lighting tips, working with groups, even a couple of jokes to lighten (sorry) the mood...
From now on I suspect you'll get 200 twitter questions at 17:30 Thursday, in the hopes of another article like this one!
Stuff like this is why I keep coming back here. I'm a rank beginner in off-camera flash, but if I get even one tip a week it's worth it...
Enough gushing, thanks again!
Mark
What? The lighting diagrams aren't pictured on napkins with coffee stains?
Vicki is a very lucky person to get such great advice! Hope she gets to this in time.
-pepper
Single handidly one of the most simple, plain helpful explanations ever. You are a machine!
Cheers Vincent
I have about the same "big job" as Vicki has, only it's x11.
I have to shoot 11 groups of about 5 to 10 people in a way that later on I'll "photoshop" them to create the impression that they were together in one photo.
Any advices on that?
Great description! I have a group shot coming up at wedding in November in the UK so it's 100% guaranteed to be dark, dark and maybe dark.
Thanks!
I have to say this was one of your most interesting posts ever! I think it's the level of detail which appealed. It's like a video game walkthrough. Next time I need to plan a military coup I will @ Tweet you.
'Good luck, Vicki' indeed. And if Vicki doesn't show us all the pay off shot, then I for one will be disappointed. Vicki - do it for the [Strobist] team!
Absolutly fantasic advice!
Im really eager to see Vicki's results.
Good luck Vicki.
Full marks for service!
Incredible what you come up with on such short notice... And it makes for a nice refresher for everybody else.
Thanks Dave.
For our big group shots (200ish) of our unit I usually do outdoors in the early morning and end up with some weird shadows even though I try to shoot in shade. I'll have to think about using this technique to augment the morning light.
Regards
David - Great explanation and setup. I have a question with regards your comment about having people face the centre. Presumably, they point their bodies at 45 degrees towards the centre and look at the camera? I'm not sure what effect this will have on the glasses wearers. Could you elaborate on this as I have problems with group shots with reflections on spectacles. Many thanks
Martin
Great tutorial. Would you set it any different with a monoblock? Jason
IMHO, that was the most valuable and useful post in a long time. Thanks for the detail. It really helps.
Really useful article, thanks David! What kind of 35mm-equivalent lens would you use? Would a ultrawide be necessary in some circumstances, assuming it would be corrected for distortion after?
Cheers,
Matt
I shoot a gymnastics team tomorrow at a local YMCA. I'm sure I can use this for the group shot. Thanks David. You are the best! I LOVE you man!!
Fantastic ! fascinating.
Mmmm not sure on the American though: (I'm a Brit I'm afraid.) Bleachers.. ? I presume that is American for raked seating?
I have this sort of thing to do coming up for a choir in a church: with the rood screen behind. Very similar I think. Mmm going to have to think how to get a separation light however...
Can we see your pictures Vicki once you are done? (e.g. post a liknk to Flikr)
And indeed, can you post some of the set up; and the space to give us a feel for how it felt during the set up?
Your thoughts as you go through the process would also be interesting I think for those of us about to follow; so we can refelct on what was easier/ more difficult/ nearly an over sight for you... so we can reflect on it.
PS All this thinking about lighting has culminated in my first editorial photo in a glossy magazine "Attitude"): in an article to do with Alan Turing. Which I was chuffed to bit, but they didn't credit my photo which I'm pretty hacked off about, but little I can now do about it I guess, esp. as I'm sure it was just a mistake...
Thanks Dave!
I've done dozens of group shots, large and small, and made tons of mistakes along the way. This is, by far, the best step-through explanation that I have ever read. I wish I had read this 8 years ago when I started shooting professionally. Thanks for dropping some helpful tricks into a "nuts and bolts" kinda shoot.
Brilliant guidance. I'm bookmaking this page.
Love this line, David: "It's like cooking -- add salt to taste."
Great post! So much to something as simple as herding cats...I mean large group shots. Cheers!
Simple, detailed, to the point. Excellent post.
David, as ever, excellent post. I want to go out and assemble a crowd just to try it out!!! :)
Only question I have is about the far right of the key light, in your setup they will be farthest from the key light - I understand that the nearest side will benefit from the zoomed light feathering, but won't this light drop off leave the right hand side underexposed? (or does the fill handle this?)
Cheers Dom
Great advice! Love this article. I have shot many group shots and you gave me a few ideas I had not thought of (glasses to the left, etc) Thanks!
This is an outstanding post. So much great information packed in a little spot.
Brilliantly informative....thank you!!!
David, you are great at making me laugh. I've been trying a more simple version of this for sport teams but I will implement what I learned on the post. Thanks a bunch!
This is great, Thanks David!
David, this month's National Geographic Magazine has an amazing article on Redwoods. There is a behind the scene's video on how Michael Nichols shot the 5 page gatefold image of a 1500 year old 300 foot tall tree: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player#/?titleID=nichols-redwoods-gatefold&catID=1
(Posted here per your instructions, sorry has nothing to do with this blog post of yours)
So what would you do with a 4th flash? Would you pair it with the key light for faster recycle times? Would you point it at the back wall or ceiling for some ambient?
D'oh! Wish you'd posted this a week ago, as I had to shoot a group of 45 hotel employees in the lobby of the hotel.
On the other hand, it's good to see that I did most of the stuff right.
Very helpful post, as usual.
David, this is the exact walk-through I've been dying for, and didn't even know it. Thanks again.
I've said it before -- your practical common sensical blunt advice is what superb. The ironic humour is grand icing on the cake, of course.
Oh my! I checked my email this morning and found a link to this post! Have mercy!
Little background on the story. I signed on to take pictures of high school homecoming coronation. Football, outside, arena lights/almost dark. Requires some thought from me but nothing I've not done before. THEN! I go on Wed to run through practice with them and they tell me they are moving it into the Gym if it rains. WHAT THE HECK!? THE GYM? I was still in panic mode when I desperately twittered my very vague question. Had no idea I would get a response. My luck in twittering doesn't get much response.
And big job to me means not exactly the number or the money but the importance of it to the people I am photographing. This is a job that normally would go to a very well used photographer in town and instead they picked lil ol me. So big job = pressure.
We are still up in the air about if we will have to be in the gym or not. I do not have the luxery of putting them on the ball court. They will be sitting on a stage about 6 feet from the floor. I will have to be on the floor to fit them all in. (On ladder)
Start shooting at 6:30, and I am going to be there at 5 just to make sure we are set up and ready to go. It is not supposed to rain tonight so I might luck out. I will show you my test shots when I get them posted.
I type thank you and it isn't enough, type it 10 more times and not enough. I should pay you in baked goods. This post was so informative!! I have printed it out and use it as my bible while setting up tonight.
Thank you times infinity.
Thanks for the great post!
However, I would like to add (in Vicki's "defense"): maybe she didn't know she had this gig until 48 hours before the shoot...? It happens. I think it happens a lot!?
Case in point: I had a friend recently email me in the morning about a job that was due to an Art Director later that same day. (Not kidding.) I was already out on a job that day and didn't even get the email until I got home later (I do not have an iPhone, alas). So needless to say, I didn't get/take the assignment.
Good stuff Maynard!
It didn't pertain to me, but I'm glad I read it.
Yes, tell the camera settings. too.
Any tips on using off camera flash with a point and shoot. I'm guessing if I'm over 15 ft away from the subject that the on-camera flash will merely act as a slave trigger.
What a great post! Thanks!
What a great post. I am another photog that will be doing a big shot soon. Much appreciated!
Hi David,
When I shoot a group I always ask them what color the flash was. If someone says "PINK" their eyes were closed.
Great set up information for Vicki.
Ray Go4th
Just returned from game/shoot. Was outside, all went well. I took some shots in the gym and will post them to flickr and link via comment here.
Again THANK YOU!!!
And yes, I was called about the job on Monday and was told it might be in gym on Wednesday so I did not have any notice. Made it by the skin of my teeth!
Really simple and consitent, clear diagram. A grat set up with 3 flashes to do the job in a nice and easy way.
I really enjoyed this post? Great explanation.
Gives us the confidence to want and go out and photograph a group.Thanks very much for sharing.
Excellant post!Really enjoyed your explanation.Gives us the confidence to go photograph a group.Thanks for sharing.
@Telmo
Check out this great article from Zach Arias about a group shot he did in Dubai: http://www.zarias.com/?p=340
Hope it helps :)
-James
Excellent post. Great advise on the lighting side, but also great advise on preparation and people management. Thanks!
- Rory
David, I thought I knew how to shoot groups, but I read your description and more than once said, "oh, I didn't think about that..". Should we now start addressing you as "oh captain, my captain", or sensei? Fancy little diagrams too! Great, great stuff, sir, keep it up!
The lighting description you provided is something that is lacking from almost every other educator: the art of human interaction. Lighting and photography is much more than technical. Thank you for filling in those important details.
After reading this great post, I would definitely follow you on Twitter. Nice work man.
http://seasonepisodeonlinestream.blogspot.com
David you are the shizzle fo' rizzle. I've been doing a lot of big group shots lately and I'm sure this will come in handy. Thank you sir!
Oh, David! We all know speedlighting gyms is one of your favorite things. I know you wouldn't pass up a question like that. And I know that reading how you did it is one of my favorite things. :-)
David,
Having watched professionals do this kind of shot by simply putting up two or three evenly spaced 800 w/s strobes into large umbrellas, your sage advice is a welcome and creative change. Plus, your soup-to-nuts package should make Vicki -- and all of all us -- a happy camper. GREAT post.
Excellent David, to me this is your very best post. And I'm loving the black&white drawings with the feathered yellow light.
I think you're ready to publish the strobist Bible book for the posterity :)
Genious Post.
I have a group shot of 80 church elders to do this month and I will be trying out this lighting set up.
Thank you
Really, really good post. Thank you!
You wrote this very nicely, you are beginning to sound more and more like Joe McNally in your blog post by post. Amazing how simple you make it all seem, but I think I speak for everyone here when I say "easier read than done." Great work, as always, keep it up.
-Mike
I want to thank you too for the post as I have been an avid reader for the past couple of months. A LOT OF INFO ON HERE AND my brain is to small :).
However, I would say I am surprised you didn't use the tool you blogged about a small while ago that helps you draw lighting diagrams :)
but I did enjoy your drawings.
You da man, David!
you just saved my butt in a big way, indebted to you forever :)
Gosh... I shot 30 team photos for our call centre last week... In a dimly lit conference room that has low ceilings, very little room & awful Flourcescnt for fill. Glad I read Strobist religiously.
THanks!
Hi David-
Just a thought about how you lay out the group. Let's make a couple of assumptions, the shooter is using a 50mm lens and was able to get F3.2 out of the speedlights. If the center of the group is 15 feet away then you will have a total DOF of 5.33 feet. Assuming that we lay out three rows of people in a straight line the ends of the group will have to be more than 15' from the focal plane. Seems to me that this is going to result in almost everyone being OOF. Though I haven't tried this personally, it might make sense to draw an arc 15' from the camera position and have the group line up on the arc. You might have a better chance of having people in focus this way. How might that effect the lighting set up?
Corey Schwartz
Desert Ridge Photography
www.desertridgephotography.com
Really great article! I've got to say - this is masterful work and you willingness to share makes your work even stronger! I'm so happy to be the newest subscriber to Strobist!
Lech
Great post!
I might be mistaken, but I haven't seen a link to any results yet?
You're a saint. I don't have any groups coming up, but if I did I'd know where to come.
Thanx.
No Ed you are not mistaken. I posted that the event was outside and we did not have to set up lights inside. I did take a few shots inside but did not set up lights.
I am thankful for the help! I know where to turn for help in the future.
Still waiting for an address to send a thank you basket! =-)
A little hint for blinkers. It seems the eye does not blink when following a moving object. An assistant tossing, say, a stuffed Mickey Mouse up in the air continuously will hold the attention of the group and help to eliminate blinks. It's silly fun, too, particularly is it's a group of judges...
Awesome post that seems very applicable to a school orchestra shot of about 30 kids that I am doing in a little over 48 hours. We are probably going to be shooting them on a staircase in a high school lobby. Any variations on this you would recommend? I am specifically wondering about placement of the separation light. The group, as I see it now, will be going up the staircase facing down to me.
Awesome post that seems very applicable to a school orchestra shot of about 30 kids that I am doing in a little over 48 hours. We are probably going to be shooting them on a staircase in a high school lobby. Any variations on this you would recommend? I am specifically wondering about placement of the separation light. The group, as I see it now, will be going up the staircase facing down to me.
I followed this approach last night to shoot my wife's choir in a dark church. About 70 people, and used three Nikon SBs pretty much as suggested. My shot and some of the test shots showing the build up of lights are here http://bit.ly/7KgFxM
Thank you so much for this post! I was intrigued when you first wrote it and kept it in the back of my head until last week when I was asked to photograph an entire high school faculty. It worked!! Your post made it possible for me to understand how to pull off a shot of almost 60 teachers in their gymnasium.
http://tinyurl.com/25za63a
Thanks again for creating this awesome resource. And hey, who knew those rd-616 ebay triggers would go over 100' on fully charged batteries! Awwww yeah.
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